My $.02. My personal opinion is that the military has found that many recruits are unable to accurately fire the .45 and cannot manage the recoil. Do give the Walther PPS serious consideration. 10 Best ways to Make Money on Social Media and not waste time. The original FBI testing of bullets conducted in the late 1980s involved testing the Winchester 147 grain subsonic hollow point 9mm round, the Remington 185 grain hollow point .45 round and a 10mm 180 grain hollow point round. 45 stopping power! In stark contrast, the vast majority of incidents involving .40 S&W and .45 ACP resulted in gunshot victims being DRT; they dropped and expired right where they were initially shot, even with imperfect shot placement. G27 with the 10 for EDC and G22 with 22 count mag for inside the house, 40 doesnt seem to have that much more pop than 9mm to me, and i have relatively small hands. I am not aware of any hollowpoints that were designed to expand on the way to the target. I like how the author notes that the accuracy analogy is nonsense, thats true. He didnt get more than three feet from the bathroom. Why is .45 acp so much better than 9mm? And thats hardly re-enacting a self defense scenario. Because head shots are rare and extremely difficult, and torso hits are likewise difficult and do not result in immediate incapacitation, choosing handgun bullets for officers is a critically important task. Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as knock-down power. The only thing that can knock a target down is physiological incapacitation or psychological stress. On a side note, this is the recent trend move away from larger calibers to smaller ones. Thanks. I have the perfect picture for this: Those pins stayed in place for 18 months while the bone knit. It is a poor idea to keep your finger inside the 12 shots fired. Shooting light steel target that doesnt allow penetration at all vs a human body is a little bit different. If you kill one, you take one out of battle. With the spine on the backside with the arteries running along it, coupled with the obesity of the fast food hoodlum, that penetration was considered more key. 158 gr 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullet will penetrate outside skin of car door and sometimes just penetrate the inside skin. I own 9mm, .40 and .45. The bullet had disintegrated his spleen and torn his aorta. When you consider that almost all wounds from pistol caliber firearms were inflicted with SMGs, and when you consider that the most common German 9mm round issued during the war used a 90gr steel-core bullet loaded to do over 1400 ft/sec from pistol length barrels and 1800+ out of SMGs, and you compare this to the lumbering 230gr .45 caliber bullet that had less than half that velocity, it seems pretty plausible. While massive trauma to the circulatory system can cause incapacitation, this takes time. The tests resulted in the selection in 1989 of the 10mm bullet as the most effective and accurate round for FBI agents to carry. I carry a 10auto. It may take 2 rounds to take someone down, but the shooter will have a lot easier follow up shots with the smaller 9mm. I shot 8 watermelons, 4 for each gun. A tenured officer responded to a violent male mental on a *TD bus. One other thought dont ever modify the trigger on your self-defensive gun if you ever have to use it in those situations and lawyer finds that out he will own everything you have. Proper shot placement is the lamest argument based on logic. For me the argument is how the pistol or revolver feels in my hand and how accurately can shoot it. With those factors in mind, Id prefer one of the calibers most likely to immediately incapacitate and prevent return fire. True. That changed for me Dec of 2017. 45 45 standard velocity is 850 to 900 fps, NOT 500 fps. Temporary cavity is often grossly overrated as a wounding factor, but has historically been one of the primary methods for measuring effectiveness. I have had to fire both and knowing that the 9 mm is a lighter piece of lead compared to the 45 ACP it is all about placement then. Now call me a troll as I suspect you may be in love with your clunky Glock and .9mm round. I have shot many different calibers. The 45 hit harder and put your target down more quickly than the 9 mm. interacts online and researches product purchases Richard, I guess I have little feminine hands as I prefer to carry my 9mm for self-defense and on duty. Ballistic gel is a joke and not a valid substitute for actual flesh and bone. People have walked off from head shot wounds from the venerable .45, .38 mag, etc. The body's liver, pancreas and kidneys also can make about 1 gram of creatine per day. I enjoyed reading all of this info but didnt once read the real reason the .45 was originally better at stopping than the .36 cal. Good job Chris and the rest of you but remember when you give gun advise target shooting and self defense shooting are two different scenarios and one can get you deadyou cant shoot my gun as good as me but you can shoot your gun because its the best one for you. That aside, its always been my impression with any pistol cartridge, that they dont achieve the velocity necessary for expansion. D.R. Remember, people dont have health bars. Most people shot with long gun rounds they tend to be doa . A pilot was shot and killed by a .45acp in WWII. THE FOWDYFIVE IS THE LORDS CALIBER!!! CAN I GET AN AMEN?!? (that was actually a thing btw, Im not Long time reloader right here as well which is why I couldnt believe when I read what I did in that other articleclearly someone that doesnt understand how these things work!! The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Small grip,,Low recoil,,, easy conceability One size does Not fit all. Why bullet size matters in police shootings | PoliceOne.com At least to the U.S. Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command (MARSOC), there is no longer a question. Heres what they found it did to those enemies bodies, as republished in New York Times reporter C.J. I spent FAR more money letting her out every pistol they had for rent than I did purchasing her final choice. I also do not understand why the M&P was disqualified, but it could be that other manufacturers guns have already been eliminated as well. Someone may be laughing but I am given to understand that over in Iraq and Astan there are people who frequently HAVE had to chase down individuals who have been wounded with a handgun. Then you missed. When dealing with a highly motivated target, milliseconds matter. end of discussion. High-velocity We all, sitting safe and pretty, can discuss this and that but we are NOT in their shoes. 2.1 and 2.5 million defensive gun uses annually, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, Arming Yourself: A Woman's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Protecting Your Family: A Parent's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Arming the Elderly: A Self-Defense Guide for Senior Citizens, Holsters for Self Defense: A Guide to Carrying Concealed, Arming Toddlers and The "Kinder-Guardians" Program: A Shamefully Bad Idea, Self Defense for LGBT: Self-Protection and Concealed Carry (CCW) for the LGBT Community, Arming the Disabled: A Self-Defense and Concealed Carry Guide for People With Disabilities. Just my thoughts and observations over the years. Take this for what its worth. Damage: 22. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for The best gun is the one that is best in your hands not best someone elses hands. But you still want the best caliber possible, because while people are disposed to fall down when shot, not every target does. So In a effort to That still dont make them experts but better than the average person. Sick and tried of people not in the field deciding what is best for those in the field. No matter what caliber you are carrying, just remember that one of the keys to shooting through auto glass (whether from within or outside the vehicle) is to shoot as much as possible through the same hole. With practice almost anything is possible. This type of damage is known as permanent cavity. Ive never liked Glock its sure a well made gun but definitely NOT the best gun Ive shot. When the .223 exits the barrel of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. Only high-velocity rounds (those with an impact velocity of 2,000 feet per second or more) with soft or hollow points reliably offer fragmentation. My Kimber .45 is one of my favorite pistols EVER, but its heavy and only has 8 rounds. When theres no more powder burning to push the projectile, it decelerates. Youd be much better served with HOT 357 mag loads or a 44mag. Two shots were within an inch of his heart. As blood moves through the body, it picks up extra fluid, chemicals and waste. Symptoms The military is basing their decisions on dollars not dependability not the servicemans life! The only gun I could get to in time was a Glock 17 loaded with 115 grn jhp ammo. I prefer the .45 ACP. The gunman was able to inflict such extensive damage from across a baseball field because he was using a semiautomatic rifle that may have qualified as an assault weapon, akin to a standard infantry combat weapon. Like John Saunders, I also used a M1D scoped. A 7.6225 is venerated as so amazing by PPsh humpers. The earlier FBI testing left no doubt that tissue displacement was greater with the larger rounds. The 7.62 round is not as fast as the .223, the round fired by the AR-15 (Americas most popular semiautomatic rifle), but it hits its target with more energy. Reddit I know the argument for +P with lighter bullets, but I settled on these because they meet my two most important criteria for defensive ammo penetration and accuracy. My bottom line is to shoot what you shoot the best. But honestly, if you cannnot conceal a 1911 you cant conceal a G19.. Thats a bs statement, I know this because I carry concealed and my 1911 conceals just as well as a single stack 9mm compact. Pretty broad pattern where adrenaline can also make hands shake. A forum community dedicated to all 1911 firearm owners and enthusiasts. Police, f.b.i., train. The two most important factors to consider, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavitation. 45 ACP When they strike, the bullets rotate, and more of their surface hits the body. I am a classic ). What damage can a .45 caliber bullet do to a human? - Quora I am sorry for your incounter. Thats because the 7.62 is almost twice as massive as a .223. JP-Thank you for your real life documentation. The concern that a round will pass through an assailant and harm an innocent bystander is largely exaggerated. damage Most of the ballistic testing I have seen comparing the penetration of various bullets and calibers would suggest that generally, a .45ACP and 9mm are both quite comparable as far as penetration is concerned. If the first bullet ricochets off the windshield, the succeeding rounds will make it through. 45 ACP It is also of considerable general interest if for no other reason than to show how often the movie makers and novel writers make appalling blunders. To my way of thinking, its great as a CC gun, or that in the boot back-up. However, I purchased the 9 mm because for a carry gun I feel safer with the style of firearm I bought for daily carry purposes. But only weighed 140 lbs then. But the guy kept on coming. Not concerned with concealed carry. I however still allowed to carry a 45 and, will as long as I am able to. It is a very real possibility and one that should be considered. Handgun velocities top out at around 1,500 fps at the muzzle. This, as with any other type of penetration test, is plagued with inaccuracies. This study is still referenced time and again for its information about wounds inflicted by grenade and shell fragments, but what it says about handgun bullets doesnt fit the bigger r always better narrative, so that parts been buried and forgotten. Some of the best handgun calibers for self defense are: To adequately understand the efficiency of incapacitating a target, we must have some basic understanding of the mechanics of wounding how damage to the human body works. Again this is my opinion and it is based on personal COMBAT EXPERIENCE. there again I drive a 502 Gasser for pleasure. Open carry is fine where Im at. He sure has screwed us military retires over the last several years! Look at the Walter Scott shooting. According to the song the battle for New Orleans, canonbalks were fired from alligator mouths which showed resourcefulness. If you dont have an excellent chance against a large carnivore with it. At 70, I choose to go small & straight! Also we are talking pistols. You shoot when you can, at the place you most want. I would make the same recommendation to all American law enforcement agencies who are considering a switch to 9mm handguns. As a civilian with a concealed carry permit, my rule is that I will carry the heaviest, store bought self defense round that I can buy. Police usually shoot from a distance. People have died from .22 LR in one shot. I still did like the 39-2 for CC. As a medical provider who fractured his back, making a house call in Alaska-dealing with chronic pain issues-I have talk to our local Police Captain. But I have some serious doubts about his understanding of external and terminal ballistics. Now thats hilarious. These features, along with superb marketing efforts, have made the 9mm the round of choice, not only for the armed forces, but also for most police departments in the U.S. Maybe .22 LR? It can also destroy your aim, and the strongest bullet on earth is useless if it doesnt hit the bad guy coming at you. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. Grinder: I realize this reply is way late in being posted, but I couldnt let that pass. While the classic .45 ACP round is large, its also relatively slow, with an average velocity of 850-900 FPS for most types of ammo. This is pretty interesting BTW https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/. I know a LEO that works in Mendocino County CA. Yes, Hugh, I have shot both rounds into a human and I can say this. and manufacturers. An exit wound differs greatly from an entrance wound. A 1911 in 9MM? But a .45/70 at 1597 fps equals a .270 Win at 3200 fps ballistically on impact and follow through. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. At The Trace, we examine what happens after bullets are sold, shot, and wound human beings. For you to dissect their writings may be fun but not productive. One had a 9mm one had a .45who is gonna get up quicker to finish the job. Im sorry, but the .50 Barrett sucks there is no match grade ammo available for it. After decades of witnessing the 45 vs 9 mm battle. 45 muzzle velocity is 500 feet per second and the 9mil is 1500 fps. Which things can be argued, but more important is being able to handle what you have. We do, however, have reliable information from labs with regard to how much tissue rounds destroy. Creatine Shot placement is the deciding factor. Muscle memory is great thing. first handgun i ever fired was glock27 .40SW she was snappy at first but 16 years later and after shooting lots of .45 and 9, i am back to .40SW for HD purposes. 5.56 NATO in .223 Rem could result in failures. In combat the one thing that does count is having more capacity, whether you miss or have more threats to neutralize, more capacity is a good thing no matter how you look at it. Matthew McConaughey tells the story of those killed in Uvalde in emotional plea for action on guns. for every day carry. However, there are two factors virtually everyone agrees on: 1. 9mm capacity! Also the .45 will ring your ears like hell and most self defense scenarios are you are not wearing ear protection. But you have no proof that the .45 ACP will work that much better. Heart shot, rolled it on the spot. In fact you are 1000 rounds short. Doctors later determined that this round was not survivable. There have been several attempts by ballistics engineers to increase the wounding ability of a round. WebAs shown in Fig. Growing up in Alaska, I have shot more than a fair share of big game. Shooting survivors and their caregivers describe a lifetime of chronic pain, repeated surgeries years after being shot, and challenges to everyday living that come from losing parts of vital organs, like a woman who has to buy her son expensive protein shakes after he lost much of his stomach. I think the pain element is still to much with paint balls for Obamas new policy I think dart guns with the rubber suction cups would be more his speed. 7.62 isn't pistol ammunition though. The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball.. Going back and reading over your original post, by the by, I can only say this: Also, there are documented cases from New York and other law enforcement agencies of officers shooting criminals and having their bullets pass entirely through the criminal and striking a civilian bystander, thus wounding someone not engaged by the police officer. In the black powder days hollow points had not been invented yet and most bullets were round nose lead so the larger heavier bullet hit harder. Through and through shots were the issue and the 9 just bounced of bones and exited. Even after suffering multiple 9mm gunshot wounds, victims are capable of fleeing considerable distances. This was not a good CC gun so I traded it for a S&W 39-2 9mm. One week later the detective in charge advised me that papa lived, walked out of the hospital and back to Mexico. Back then we all agreed the larger rounds had better stopping power. Robert MacNemerra knew nothing about firearms but his decision that the AR-15s chrome lined bore and chamber was a needless waste of money brought a whole lot of grief to a whole lot of people. The one thing Ive learned and seen over a lot of shooting is that a 9mm with FMJ bullets is mostly useless. But, this little word but often comes up in real life. Real world combatants or keyboard commandos. Penetrative powers of various types of ammunition - Ballistics That said today I only carry my 5th gen Glock 19. Well judging by the fact that .45 has been killing people since at least the 1870sI'd say it can really screw up your day. LE, south LA and Watts for 8 1/2 out of 15 years. My department stopped using them in 45 cal because there were enough malfunction to stop. I was a PA-C in the military. I still carry a Ruger P-97 in 45 ACP caliber. Do Not Sell My Personal Information. Between 14 and 45 , flak jacket and 5 mag 20 7.76 stayed in shape. Both hit 15 first shot, .45 exploded watermelon leaving trails about 15 feet behind, 9mm put a hole in it nothing more. Q-do you think your mind will change about +P in a 45 cal? Hollow point bullets are superior to round-nosed ones. The round should be able to penetrate the body sufficiently to damage internal organs, even from less-than-ideal angles. This may be called Tools or use an icon like the cog. I carried an issue 45. Yes, I will agree that air resistance is constantly at work against a bullet, thereby slowing it down as it travels toward its intended target. This whole conversation for over 2+ years is hilarious. Not to kill but enough to let us get to our guys or a firearms. Bottom line, if you come at me and I shoot you with my 9 mm or my 45, or my 380, its going to hurt like hell! Moreover, law enforcement shootings typically result in only one or two solid torso hits on adversaries. Talk to someone that has been shot with a 9mm FMJ round and ask them what it feels like and contrast that to someone that has been shot with a 45 ACP FMJ round. Sources say Jimmy Lam used a TEC-9 style pistol, illegal to sell in the state for almost two decades. Think the title of this article is misleading. Confirmed by projectiles taken out of Papa. There is a wide range of participants and many of them have never fired a gun of any kind. you should read TIFU my boss shot me reddit. And while its not the final word on wound ballistics, its an important contribution to what should be an ongoing discussion. I know they dont keep records like this; but if you could count all the rounds fired in a battle, and how many kills were made by each caliber; would that not be a better indicator of the efficiency of the caliber. Like cars and motorcycles its all a matter of preference for each individual.God Bless America and May God keep us safe so we dont ever have to be put in a situation to have to find out. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. Now that has some stopping power and even at 600 yards. The USMC changed to 9mm since female Marines had trouble with recoil and were not qualifying at same rate as males. So how can we expect people to take a human life so readily? SEMPER FI. It worries me that you feel safe carrying a .45 acp around bears and moose. Hogwash!! All studies are greatly flawed and there is no serious pursuit of better studies due to the enormous difficulty, if not impossibility, of scientifically analyzing real-life shooting incidents. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. We can argue 9 vs 45. This recent policy change and operational change means the U.S. Marine Corps' special arm of SOCOM (U.S. Special Operations Command) has also come to terms with the debate of 9mm vs. .45ACP. (My opinion) I have long advocated carrying 1911s with 8 extra magazines. In this dangerous time period, an officers adversary can continue his deadly actions against an officer. Cheap crap. I see your point. Rounds that do not hit the intended target are obviously more dangerous to bystanders than a round that hits the target. It appears now we have had to Dumb Down our .45cal. .. maybe for some people the 45 is too much power,. Which would put a bullet in the lower chest area with variance of the bullet which can be 2-3 or even 5-6. This study is thus inherently flawed, as it ranks large shallow wounds above deeper ones. So logically the 45 is more effective at stopping Humans, than the 9mm, data from lethal census. Battlestar Galactica. We have much better tools now. Of course, smoothly drawing a handgun leads directly to another subject: which holster is best for those concerned with personal protection? The reason is recoil. Stay safe everyone, JP, first of all, Im really sorry you had to go through that. WebThe.45 acp proved an effective round with greatly improved stopping power. So, yes, they are looking at it with the assumption that modern 9mm JHP bullets perform very similarly to .40s&w and .45acp, and thus will move toward 9mm loadings for sidearms. With bigger bullets, you will make bigger holes., What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. His chest was gurgling and slurping. Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. The only thing caliber has to do with it is 9mm is size efficient for capacity. Plus, this decision saves the military a substantial amount of money as Glocks are cheap, and the 9mm ammo is also very affordable and, perhaps more importantly, readily available. I will never personally take a life if I have the chance to stop someone with a non lethal GSW. Just as in the case of the military, my agencies biggest determining factors for this decision were not anything to do with the performance of the rounds or the effectiveness for the safety of the officer. In the technical language of ballistics engineers, the standard unit of measurement for a bullets mass is grains of metal, and depending on the manufacturer, a .7.62. can weigh in at 125 grains. I also read a recent article about a fishing guide who shot and killed a grizzly bear with a 147gr, 9mm from a S&W 3913. Some basic physics explains why the choice of weapon, or more precisely, the choice of bullet, enabled the suspect, James Hodgkinson, who was killed by law enforcement officers, to wreak so much havoc. It was by far the easiest serviced pistol in the field, go ahead and get the lighter frame lighter weight ceramic /plastic and all that junk its fine as long as youre in a urban environment. AND.carry what YOU are comfortable and accurate with. Your tax-deductible donation to The Trace will directly support nonprofit journalism on gun violence and its effects on our communities. human body Heck a well placed .22 in the head can get the job done. Ships To Store. Physiologically, a highly motivated target can only be destroyed by hitting the brain or the upper spinal column. That alone could be a convincing argument to switch platforms. It has less recoil, is less expensive and its penetration apparently compares favorably with the larger-sized rounds. Pistols are primarily used for close combat. I think its preference and if you can conceal it. Body 45 Human Acp Damage For me, that is the Sig p226 9mm. 15 round mag of 9mm FMJ unless you hit the heart better plan on using 3 to 5 rounds to stop the person. Psychological factors play a much greater role. The projectile tears through the body causing tissue damage and creating a wound channel. Great little weapon !!! I carry a number of different calibers depending on what Im wearing that day and where I intend to go; but I no longer even own a 9mm. I thought I would never own a 9 mm. The FBI subsequently transitioned from revolvers to semi auto .40 caliber handguns with S&W .40 caliber bullets (a slightly shorter version of the 10mm round). Shot placement is often cited as a consideration when choosing the right handgun for self defense and for good reason its definitely important. The comparisons that I have seen conducted under those conditions seem to be pretty equal. I use a 1911 as thats what I learned on, prefer the way it feels in my hand. Fair testing without the bias of budgets and the need to carry what every one else is carrying would be quite refreshing and lend more to the safety of the officer or soldier who may be fighting his or her life. With training one would be more calm, but also a persons experience with conflict determines surety. Now lets talk about wound cavities caused by different caliber handgun rounds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rwYqGmVvzQ, http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165386, http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=91, http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714, http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf. We need to dial back our expectations of how effective a pistol is, regardless of caliber, barring brain or spine shots. I am sure the debate will go on till the last Cockroach dies .